[Langcom] Wikipedia requests from 2012 (first set)

[Steven White]

I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.

----

Wikipedia Mi'kmaq<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac> (mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly one-liners with pictures. Eligible.


Valencian Wikipedia<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Valenciano>: This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan Wikipedia.


Wikipedia Prussian 2<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2> (prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the language revival is continuing outside WMF.


Wikipedia Khinalug<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug> (kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers. Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.


Wikipedia Romanized Khowar<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Romanized_Khowar>: (1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this, particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be skeptical.)


Steven


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[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is little
reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.

For the rest it is fine.
Thanks,
GerardM

Post by Steven White
I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty
straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week
to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the
requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the
next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am
really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
----
Wikipedia Mi'kmaq
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac>
(mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of
Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly
one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipedia
This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of
Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a
request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is
simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a
dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in
Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to
reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan
Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2>
(prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious
revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test
has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark
as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of
approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the
language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalug
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug>
(kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers.
Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowar
(1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this,
particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it
couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA
Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project
not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use
explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be
skeptical.)
Steven
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[Jan van Steenbergen]

On the other hand,, the Langcom accepted Lingua Franca Nova, which has no
native speakers either. Yet, the project is doing very well: almost 1,400
new articles since it was created, less than three months ago.

Of course, Modern Prussian is a semi-constructed language. But then, the
same goes for Cornish. Who are we to decide whether a language is viable or
not? Personally, I'd mark it eligible. If they can make the test wiki work
(I mean: really really work), then I see no counter-indication for a
Prussian Wikipedia either.

For the record, I've never understood why there cannot be a Wikipedia in
Ancient Greek, since there are millions of people worldwide who can write
in it.

Best regards,
Jan van Steenbergen

Post by Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is
little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine.
Thanks,
GerardM

Post by Steven White
I think this first set of five Wikipedia requests from 2012 is pretty
straightforward, even if I am going to leave three of them open for a week
to make sure nobody has a problem with my proposed disposition of the
requests. However, do please start keeping an eye on these, because the
next couple of sets are going to raise some policy questions that I am
really going to need LangCom as a whole to address. Thank you.
----
Wikipedia Mi'kmaq
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Micmac>
(mic): Aboriginal language of New England and the Atlantic Provinces of
Canada. 7200 native speakers. Test has over 200 pages, albeit mostly
one-liners with pictures. Eligible.
Valencian Wikipedia
This is described as the main language of the autonomous community of
Valencia in Spain, and has 2.4 million speakers. It has no langcode, and a
request for one was rejected in 2006, on the grounds that Valencian is
simply a variety of Catalan. (SIL/Ethnologue still describes this as a
dialect of Catalan.) Catalan Wikipedia apparently allows content in
Valencian. Holding for one week for LangCom comments, but I propose to
reject, while encouraging potential contributors to contribute to Catalan
Wikipedia.
Wikipedia Prussian 2
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Prussian_2>
(prg): Prussian went extinct in the 18th century, but there are serious
revival efforts underway, and apparently a first, new native speaker. Test
has had some modest activity in recent months. I'm thinking we should mark
as eligible, while noting that if and when it actually comes to a point of
approval—it has fewer than 20 pages right now—we'd hope to see that the
language revival is continuing outside WMF.
Wikipedia Khinalug
<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_new_languages/Wikipedia_Khinalug>
(kjj): Endangered language of Northeast Caucasus with about 1,000 speakers.
Test has about 100 pages. Eligible.
Wikipedia Romanized Khowar
(1) There is no evidence that there is really a community needing this,
particularly as a separate project. (Further, there's no evidence it
couldn't be done by script converter.) (2) This is another project by RA
Chitrali, whom we had trouble with on the original Khowar Wikipedia project
not too long ago. Propose to reject. (On-wiki, I'm just going to use
explanation 1 above. Explanation 2 is simply an additional reason to be
skeptical.)
Steven
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Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

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[Michael Everson]

Revived Cornish has had a century of publication. I in fact have published well over two million words in Cornish. I’ve never looked into Revived Prussian, but it should be easy to determine whether it’s robust enough for use.

On the other hand,, the Langcom accepted Lingua Franca Nova, which has no native speakers either. Yet, the project is doing very well: almost 1,400 new articles since it was created, less than three months ago.
Of course, Modern Prussian is a semi-constructed language. But then, the same goes for Cornish. Who are we to decide whether a language is viable or not? Personally, I'd mark it eligible. If they can make the test wiki work (I mean: really really work), then I see no counter-indication for a Prussian Wikipedia either.
For the record, I've never understood why there cannot be a Wikipedia in Ancient Greek, since there are millions of people worldwide who can write in it.
Best regards,
Jan van Steenbergen

[Phake Nick]

Post by Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is
little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine.
Thanks,
GerardM

For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from
revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since
year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city,
however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people
start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to
let them become a native speaker of the language So even in this idealistic
Hebrew revitalization case, it would still take almost half a century
before Wikipedia could create a Hebrew version for them if we already have
Wikipedia back then and this guideline was used. I don't think it's a good
idea to drag out so long.

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Post by Phake Nick

Post by Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is
little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine.
Thanks,
GerardM

For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from
revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since
year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city,
however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people
start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to
let them become a native speaker of the language

Nope, if you talk about when did people START it, then it's more like 1882:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Avi

It took a few years for more native speakers to be born. I need to check
how many exactly, but I'm pretty sure it did not take forty years.

The first Hebrew kindergarten started in 1913 or so by David Yellin
(accounts vary; and note that the whole concept of a kindergarten was only
about 100 years old then).

The time of the British mandate (1920s) is the time of recognition of
Hebrew as an official language, and the establishment of Hebrew higher
education institutions. Thousands of those children had grown up and wanted
to learn engineering and humanities somewhere. Publishing of
(non-religious) Hebrew books and newspapers had been several decades old by
that time.

Will this happen with Prussian? I don't know. I find Michael's attitude to
this pretty balanced.

[Amir E. Aharoni]

... Or, if we compare this to Hebrew, we could go much further back, to the
early 19th century attempts to write modern literature in it. This would
possibly be a closer comparison.

בתאךיך שבת, 1 בס׀ט׳ 2018, 08:23, מאת Amir E. Aharoni ‏<

Post by Amir E. Aharoni

Post by Phake Nick

Post by Gerard Meijssen
Hoi,
Prusian is imho not eligible, there are no native speakers. There is
little reason to believe that it is in a category similar to Ancient Greek.
For the rest it is fine.
Thanks,
GerardM

For languages under revitalization efforts, if you look at example from
revival of Hebrew, people start using Hebrew for daily conversation since
year 1880s, and Tel Aviv established in 1909 as a Hebrew-speaking city,
however it's only during Mandate period which start after WWI that people
start teaching children with Hebrew as their mother language and thus to
let them become a native speaker of the language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itamar_Ben-Avi
It took a few years for more native speakers to be born. I need to check
how many exactly, but I'm pretty sure it did not take forty years.
The first Hebrew kindergarten started in 1913 or so by David Yellin
(accounts vary; and note that the whole concept of a kindergarten was only
about 100 years old then).
The time of the British mandate (1920s) is the time of recognition of
Hebrew as an official language, and the establishment of Hebrew higher
education institutions. Thousands of those children had grown up and wanted
to learn engineering and humanities somewhere. Publishing of
(non-religious) Hebrew books and newspapers had been several decades old by
that time.
Will this happen with Prussian? I don't know. I find Michael's attitude to
this pretty balanced.

[Oliver Stegen]

Dear all,

I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language
Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good
team work.

Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver

[Amir E. Aharoni]

Very, very sad to see you go. Your contributions were fantastic.

I wish you the best, and I hope to meet you again some day!

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni · א־מ֮י׹ אֱל֎ישׁ֞ע אַהֲךוֹנ֎י
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
‪“We're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.” – T. Moore‬


‫בתאךיך יום ד׳, 26 בס׀ט׳ 2018 ב-14:06 מאת ‪Oliver Stegen‬‏ <‪

Post by Oliver Stegen
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language
Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good
team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver
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Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

[Jon Harald Søby]

Sad to hear this, you've done a great job as part of the committee! Your
expertise and connections have been very valuable to our work here. And I
think it would be uncontroversial to say that you're welcome back later if
you want to. :-)

Post by Oliver Stegen
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language
Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good
team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

[MF-Warburg]

Hi Oliver,

sad to hear this! I hope we can still count on your expertise if we have
something in your field ;)
And I second what Jhs says.

Best regards
MF-W

Post by Jon Harald Søby
Sad to hear this, you've done a great job as part of the committee! Your
expertise and connections have been very valuable to our work here. And I
think it would be uncontroversial to say that you're welcome back later if
you want to. :-)
Den ons. 26. sep. 2018 kl. 13:06 skrev Oliver Stegen <

Post by Oliver Stegen
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language
Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good
team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

--
mvh
Jon Harald SÞby
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

[Michael Everson]

I’m just very sad to hear it.

M

Post by Oliver Stegen
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
While not a surprise it is sad and, we will miss you. Do your thing, be
happy and know that we remember you fondly. That there is always a place
for you.
Thank you
Gerard

Post by Oliver Stegen
Dear all,
I'm sorry to announce that I have to step down from the Language
Committee. The main reason being that I have to cut down my computer time.
It's been a good seven-and-a-half years and I thank you all for the good
team work.
Wishing you all the best for the future,
Oliver
_______________________________________________
Langcom mailing list
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/langcom

[Steven White]

Same from me. Your contributions have always been worthwhile and insightful, and I will miss your participation here. All the best, Steven


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